Rebecca Beltran: 00:00
My guest for this episode today is Sarah Thompson. I've known Sarah and been working with her for over four years as of the time of this recording. Sarah is a tango coach, a tango tour guide leader and a gyro tonics instructor movement is her life, her bread and butter and her career. When I first started working with Sarah, intensely, it was because I was having a lot of pain in one of my feet. And it was making it hard for me to dance. And I had been looking for a variety of different experts in exercises and people to help me. And the first thing that really seemed to make a difference immediately was working with Sara and Gyrotonic. So she has helped me get back on my feet quite literally. I've also found her to be a powerful Tango coach. And because of this, I joined her on her Buenos Aires Tango tour last month, and also last year, so I've been twice now. And it has been incredible. I really enjoy the experience. I think it's a fantastic way to really get to see the world and to experience a different culture in a way that hopefully helps me rethink mine a little bit. And I think you might enjoy hearing this conversation with Sarah and I. Sarah is definitely one of those women that I lean on when I'm looking for a bit of wisdom. And I hope you find her to be as useful in your own experience in your own growth and your own expression of your art out in the world as I have. Hey, you. Thanks for tuning in. Just a quick heads up this episode is rated PG 13. So expect to hear some mild language or adult concepts.

Sara Thompson 01:57
Think that idea that we were talking about last time of the culture cultural immersion is really such a juicy part and what we all learn from putting ourselves in places that were we don't know the rules and that we have to learn new rules and challenge our belief systems. And I think that that is the juiciest part for me that keeps gives it so much aliveness.

02:25
Cool. Okay,

Rebecca Beltran: 02:27
do you have some specific examples you can talk about from your experiences to like a story to make it live and real for people?

Sara Thompson 02:35
Yeah, I'm sure I have many. I think the realization that time is a different quantity in Argentina, I think was a huge profound release for me in life. Going to salon canning on Tuesday nights to take classes with Julio and Karina you know, showing up on time. Worried about being on time of course coming from ballet, that's always a big issue. Ballet is shul right, pair up your leotard on warmed up before class starts. And it was and that's a great skill as well to have him leave a lot of stress or art, or attachment to time. And showing up at canning salon canning, famous manga on a Tuesday to go to Julio and Karina has house and Karina spa, they would be there and Monica has his wife, his girlfriend and they would greet you and you know, maybe the teachers would roll in 20 minutes late for their own class. And everybody's rolls in 20 minutes late for their own class and the class sometimes would start 30 or 40 minutes after the listed time.

03:58
And no.

Sara Thompson 04:01
Because if you get upset about those kinds of things, you would suffer immensely. And it was such a big lesson for responding in the moment to what happens in life and enjoying what does happen versus grieving what's not happening or the frustration and anxiety that occurs when things don't happen the way we expect them to or want them to. Yeah, I think it was cathartic and, and really telling previous to go into argentino I was in a relationship with a man and we you know, built up a bit of a life for ourselves and finally had a decent car a BMW and had gotten a dent in it. And I took it to a repair shop and insurance cover. I didn't take it my act took it, and he instructed them to repair the wrong debt. When I picked up the bar, I was irate. And I was a total bitch. These poor coworkers that had simply done what they were told to do, and I was so angry at my boyfriend. And, um, I was miserable, I had so much, and it seemed like the more that I had, and the more that things worked, the way they were supposed to work, the more I was frustrated, and it was a real turning point in my life where I realized, gosh, something is really wrong with my life, that I'm that upset about such a trivial matter. And I need to do something different. And really commit to the exploration, the travel, the art, the dancing, and then you know, the connection to people that comes from the unseen, so that I was really much less interested in the objects in my life. And going to Argentina, every time I go, I get reminded of how important the people are in your life, versus the objects or the timeliness or that things happen the way they're supposed to happen.

Rebecca Beltran: 06:17
And that's a lesson any of us can learn and take in at any time, right? Yeah,

Sara Thompson 06:22
I think so. But I think it's, it's a lesson you absolutely have to learn in Argentina, there's no way around it. Because things don't work. It becomes this huge gift of letting go. And being present in the moment and enjoying what does happen. So I do the trips, so that people have a taste of that without hitting overwhelmed. When you only have a week versus three months to immerse yourself in a culture, it's, you can only handle so much of that. So but as you know, from being on it, you know, the teacher needs to move his lesson, and the cook shows up late. And breakfast doesn't happen before dance class. And it's hard, it hits you sometimes. And we all have those moments, you know, each and every one of us on the trip. And then hopefully we lean into each other, and problem solve and make it through. But often there's tears, I think everybody at some point, has a hot, emotional moment of running into the unexpected.

Rebecca Beltran: 07:35
Yeah, I think you're right. And it was interesting. The first, we kind of jumped into talking about this already. So why don't we go ahead and talk about it, and I'll introduce you. But the first time that I went to Argentina with you last November, I did have some really beautiful breakthroughs and things. But I didn't have a whole lot of emotion. And I think you and I had talked about it. At one point, there wasn't a lot of space to have my emotion with the people that were there. And it wasn't that, you know, the people were not helpful or kind or anything. I was just, I felt like it wasn't something I could be that open about there. And then on the second trip, which was a couple of weeks ago, I was an entirely different story. I had a different group of people around me. And I had somebody who I trusted to be there and to listen and to care and and then I had my huge day of crying all day long. And that that was my emotional breakthrough.

08:33
Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Beltran: 08:34
I think that would be useful to talk some more about those moments. Because I think that's another thing that we don't, in our American culture, we don't usually process those things very elegantly. And it's different in a place where people are more conscientious about their emotions and are more caring for other

08:57
people. Yes to General,

Sara Thompson 08:59
I find that to their that it's really expected that humans are going to have strong emotions. And I find those less discomfort with that in the States. I think when there's strong emotion, it goes right to blame and frustration because all of the, for me the really juicy territory of all the sadness or grief or longing, all the articulation around emotions is not held very patiently. And so people jump right to solutions or judgments or strategies, right, not giving time to just having the feelings and in Argentina, and especially in tango, one of the things that I enjoy in my comedy relations with tango dancers is they'll say things like, it's normal to feel that way, it's normal to have this happen. Of course, it's the most normal thing. And I don't hear that hear of like, oh, it's normal to be sad. It's, it's so normal to be upset and to be frustrated with the dancing, it's normal to get tired and need to rest. It happens, of course, we're in Argentina, you're going to need to rest instead of powering through or moving on to the next thing, more of a tenderness with life. Yeah,

Rebecca Beltran: 10:39
I agree. It's like, culturally, we have a much stronger sense of pride and being able to move through things and not have to stop and not, you know, be the emotional one, or be the one that needs the care. And any need that we have in the US is often sublimated. And we try and pretend that we don't have it. Because you know why we can't get it met, we might as well pretend it's not there, it doesn't work. But that is the cultural imperative that we are kind of soaked in.

11:10
Yeah, I am.

Sara Thompson 11:12
And for me, the other really big piece of that emotional presence is consumerism. And in Argentina, I would go for six months or nine months sometimes. And I would come back to the States. And I would realize that I hadn't bought anything for nine months, not one single thing except for food. I hadn't gotten any clothes, any new products, any objects, any decorations, just spent my time doing things that I loved, and spending time with people in very simple ways. And I would come back or, you know, one of the best examples I would bring, I bring a lot of artists to the states, and I would take them to say Whole Foods, or PCC, and they would just wander around for hours, marveling at all the options and the choices, picking things up off the shelves and just reading them, and then putting them back and picking up the other product and just reading them and trying to understand what it is like to live with a insane amount of consumer choices. And I feel like that is the the big line in the sand in the politics and some of the practices in the cultural ceremony of Tango is that what we really need as humans is to be held and to hold each other. And the Tango is that and it it means that people don't need to buy things because they're getting the neuro sectors filled with all the good, juicy, natural chemicals that come with touch and being held and feeling emotions. And then you don't have a need for a late night snack or a new TV show, or new jacket.

Rebecca Beltran: 13:19
That's actually one of the things that I've found so interesting in Argentina, and both of the times that I've been there with you, we have stayed in really big, beautiful houses that at one point were big family living there with servants and the backstairs for people to go up and down and all of this very interesting, abundant, luxurious culture, but it was abundant and luxurious years ago. So now it's a bit dilapidated and tired. But the thing is, everybody there uses old stuff in their kitchens and everywhere else, and they just make do with what they have. And for the first time I saw it, I was like, Oh, this is a really nice house with a really crappy kitchen. And then I realized, no, this isn't a crappy kitchen. This is a really useful kitchen. As long as you're willing to use your knives and not have to use food processors and all those other things all the time. You know, it's just a different way of moving about the world. It's much more connected and alignment with the antiques and use those types of things all the time every day. Yeah. That's an interesting perspective.

Sara Thompson 14:25
I think I forget. I forget how what simplicity contrast it is. I think another great story that I love to share is my friend Tina, who is the singer wonderful woman. She's my guru in tango, and she took Jessica and one of our students was there or down with us, Abraham, he is a Turkish raised in Turkey, and had been taking classes in Seattle with us and he came down for a trip when we went to the kind of this very special name or had been longer. They had a big party, she had a barbecue and food. And it was. There's all different kinds of milongas for couples individuals. This one was for groups of friends. And so it had big long tables and big groups of friends around a table and people sit all night and talk and have a little beer and have some meet and really spend time. And yes, some dancing happens. But it was very much a social friendship me longer. And one of the things that they do, and they mean long as you get an entrance ticket, and they do a drawing at the middle and goes, and for some reason, an old batch of numbers had gotten mixed up with the new batch of numbers, or maybe people had left but they were drying number after number. And nobody was responding to this raffle. The raffle was for a set of sheets. And because you can't get imported goods in Argentina, a lot of this except for from China, a lot of the sheets are polyester blends, they're not nice sheets.

16:05
And

Sara Thompson 16:07
every time a number would get drawn and nobody would get it, there was a big hoopla and everybody would boo and laugh and heckle the rattlers that's all the wrong number, blah, blah, blah. And this went on for probably 20 minutes before somebody actually drew a number that somebody actually won. And then the whole place exploded, everybody was getting up and hugging each other and clapping and cheering. And everybody was so joyous about somebody winning a bunch of sheets and Ebro him who is an absolute love, but he was completely baffled. He says, I don't understand our sheets, hard to get in Argentina. Is this a really difficult thing to find in Argentina sheets? No, not at all. He couldn't understand why people would have so much fun, over the simple act of winning a pair of crappy sheets that have been longer. And I have recounted this story to Ricardo, our tango teacher is Yeah, because in Argentina people are so we lose all the time. And we're so happy, we just win something. That's all that matters, we want something it's the best thing ever. And yeah,

17:31
simple,

Sara Thompson 17:32
easy goods. Because you don't have all of the abundance that we have in the States, you appreciate the dumbest things so much more of her of polyester sheets, or, like you said, a good knife or a Teflon pan. People are, are happy just to have something that makes their life a little easier. And it's a nice place to live in.

Rebecca Beltran: 17:59
It was a really nice place to live in, I gotta say of the, I don't know, three weeks that I've spent in Argentina now. I can see myself going there for a good chunk of time every year just to be in the culture in the warm vibe. And the interesting artistic arena, because everybody there has some kind of art and a lot of the people that I met have some kind of second gig going, which is interesting because I know a lot of people in the US that also have a second gig or trying to do some kind of hustle on the side. But it was different in Argentina because everybody had a second gig or was doing it with their whole heart. Yeah, they were artists and real, real artists.

Sara Thompson 18:43
I think Sophia is a great example our cook on the trip. And I think you're gonna do a series of interviews with Sophia and Fadi and Ricardo. And Sophia cooks because she loves to cook she's happy in the kitchen. So creative space. But she's also an incredibly badass rapper, hip hop, Little Rock Star shooting videos and amazing productions. And they live in a house so that things where they share a house and things are affordable. And that allows her the freedom to do her work, which is all she cares about. is doing her art. And it's incredible and listening to all the things that Fetty our massage therapists had studied. Chiropractic, Asti, osteopathy, felt, cranial sacral therapy, the nervous system, and he does all that. Just out of curiosity, and what an incredible body of knowledge to acquire while he's working as a silks artist and

19:57
acroyoga fantastic.

Rebecca Beltran: 19:59
Yeah, I hear and I nerd it out about acro, yoga and all kinds of other things. But definitely about that, that'll be fun to wrap into another Tango tour. At some point, I think

20:10
I can't wait to listen to your interview.

Sara Thompson 20:15
I agree with you. Um, I was a little hesitant when he first talked about it, because I didn't understand the depth of who he was as an artist. And a lot of the stuff that I've seen, you know, at parks, and I'm not no expert on acro yoga, looked a little bit more with an emphasis on sport. And talking to Fetty, he really talked about how the same things we talked about in tango, how you have to pay attention to the needs of your partner, and that you listen to the partner. And even if there's somebody on the bottom supporting the person flying, the person flying has to respect that the bass is a part of this process also, and not go alone. And we were talking about mutual acquaintance that's also a tango dancer, from Canada, or from the US or Canada. And he had been working with her and he, he was the bottom and she was flying. And she was just doing whatever she wanted. And he's like, hello, I'm a person down here. I'm not a tool. And it was so refreshing because I forget that in Argentina. It's a everything that people do, requires insists on connection and empathy when you're collaborating. I think, as Tina said, nobody does anything alone. Yeah, nobody does anything alone. And I think we live with the illusion in the states that we're independent, little autonomous corporations. Hire out services. And as if they're as if they're, I guess, products rather than people. And I love that feeling of knowing that everything that I do is a collaboration with other people. Such gives me such a feeling of connection being needed and needing people rather than doing stuff alone.

Rebecca Beltran: 22:32
Yeah, it's a whole different thing to be doing stuff alone. It's fun. I'm an introvert, and I like to do stuff alone. And it's a whole different thing. Very different.

Sara Thompson 22:42
I love doing stuff alone, too. But I like to think about, I like being alone. Feeling alone. And you know, anything, you know that somebody made these computers that we're working on. And you know, some worker, made that foam that and that went to a store and got boxed by a human and was delivered by a person in a truck to your door or you went to a store and picked it up. That's the feeling like even if we are doing things alone, we're incredibly connected. And the illusion of aloneness is is just an illusion. Yeah, yeah. Nobody can do anything alone. Yeah, Tom Hanks needed that

23:27
volleyball. I forget what the name of the volleyball was.

Rebecca Beltran: 23:33
Was it Stan? And castaway? I can't remember.

23:36
Even you know, the desert island.

23:39
You know, we need we need. We need each

Rebecca Beltran: 23:42
other. Yeah, we need engagement and requires others.

23:47
Yeah. For me, that's I think

Sara Thompson 23:50
we have a lot of parallels in our work in that. It's a it is so much about connection and about

24:00
synergy that happens with others.

Rebecca Beltran: 24:04
Yeah, that's a good point. That's another thing that I found to be very different in Argentina is here in the US. When I talk about my work, I am very thoughtful and careful how I introduce it, because people often either need some time to ask me some questions, or they are utterly against and don't want to know anything about it, and it changes our relationship. But in Argentina, what I found is that pretty much everybody I talked to was like, Oh, that's really interesting. And then they'd start talking again, and they'd be like, Oh, I actually have a friend who's in that line of work or someone I used to date was doing that. And this is what they come up with. And so it started a whole different kind of conversation, but it also seems to be held socially in a very different way. You know, it's not this degrading thing necessarily. But it is something that has a lot more openness in the culture, I think.

Sara Thompson 24:57
Yeah, I found that really amazing. I can't Never imagined Argentina to be like other South American states that were or countries that had a lot of Catholicism and that kind of restriction around sexuality. But I don't find that at all. And when I first went down there, as a little white Seattle girl growing up on orcas pretty conservative place, I was shocked. Because every neighborhood has one or two hotel Itos hotel, little star hotels you rent by the hour. And they always have private parking means that it's just known that this isn't a unnecessary thing is to have hotels, where lovers can go and spend time together. And I was like, Oh, yeah. Because I, although I'm not religious, I was raised with some puritanical influence. And I come back to the States, and after being in Argentina for six months, and I would notice how tense everybody was reactive and tight. And I thought to myself, gosh, Seattle really needs more hotel ethos. People need, they need this, because it's such a natural human phenomenon. And when people are more comfortable with their sexuality, they're more relaxed as human beings. And and how great is it to have options to find connection and expression. And that's what I think Tango is so wonderful for is, it's such a clear place, safe place to go find connection with other human beings. And that's what people want. That's what people need. And I'm not sure why we're still confused about that in the States. Because I had an interesting encounter with a neighbor, the neighborhood that we're living in, at a New Year's party, I had been making cocktails and offered cocktails to multiple people, women men, talked to people I don't know who's who in the neighborhood, I'm new to the neighborhood. But I just treat people like I would treat Prince and a lady in the neighborhood had out of that. One event decided that I was a seductress and trying to that I needed to dance tango with all their husbands. And I was like, oh, no, honey, intense Tango will be the best people in the world. You don't need your husband study and say go that's, that's called work.

Rebecca Beltran: 27:52
I don't need them. And I don't want to thank you

Sara Thompson 27:56
so far, in her confrontation with me to suggest that Tango was about lifting your leg up and rubbing one's clitoris on a man's thigh? And she is? Yes, imagine how shocked I was. She assumed she knew what Tango was because it evokes such a strong imagery that even people that have never really seen it, or let alone done it or received any instruction on it.

28:23
Get touched

Sara Thompson 28:25
in the places that are repressed in their sensuality, and confused with sexuality. And very triggered about the difference between something being sexy versus being sexual.

Rebecca Beltran: 28:45
And yeah, that's so often tied together here. sensuality and sexuality are either one in the same or one leads to the other. And I think that's why people in the US here are so afraid of it. They don't know where the edges and when to stop. And they don't trust other people to know where the edge is and when to stop.

Sara Thompson 29:05
Yeah. Isn't that interesting? The projection that happens, and I was completely flabbergasted. And sideswiped by this aggression that was really had nothing to do with me, but everything to do with what she wasn't in her life. And angry that she wasn't, and apparently no ability to be curious about the strong feelings that she had. And I think tying back into where we started is that lack of comfort with emotions leads to that level of reactivity and disconnect and what a miserable way to live. So isolated.

Rebecca Beltran: 29:50
Definitely. And the thing is, when you're in the midst of it, you probably don't even realize that that's what you're doing that you're isolated and you've created that situation for yourself by You're the only one that has the way out of it. But you're so stressed that you can't even see it.

Sara Thompson 30:06
Yeah, even created nickname for me, apparently vice versa. Oh, there's Sarah that wears lipstick, others there and then vice versa.

Rebecca Beltran: 30:17
I like trigger bitch Sarah better. I'm still gonna call you trigger bitch.

30:24
Yeah, yeah.

Sara Thompson 30:26
So wow how how what a lonely place to be in emotionally. And hopefully, at some point she'll be interested to know more or open to resources. But what can you do with that kind of reactivity and aggression? I don't know. We'll be interesting to unravel.

Rebecca Beltran: 30:49
Yeah, and I wouldn't be interested in talking and brainstorming with you about that, too. Because I think you and I have a lot of similarities in that people are often afraid of us at first and afraid of what we bring into their world and wanting to push us away and be like, no, no, this is not for me and get the fuck out. I don't want to have anything to do with your sensuality. And you bring too much sex into the room? I can't have you here. Yeah.

Sara Thompson 31:16
And I'm not sure why that is still, like a hidden thing, that we're biological creatures that reproduce and sex is the only way that that actually happens. And yet, it's so we have a huge amount of discomfort with it, or over over sexualizing things. In the States, I think that it's the other piece. Yeah. to do with it.

Rebecca Beltran: 31:48
This point. Maybe that's why we have such a hard time realizing when to stop and trusting other people to know when to stop.

Sara Thompson 31:56
Yeah. Trust that, that trust in humanity. Also just being able to the comfort to be able to say, boundaries without judgments. Buddy, and I had a great conversation during one of the massage sessions. It said, it's so weird in your country, that people will stand around and listen to somebody talking for 20 minutes just to be polite. And he described a situation a conversation that happened with one of his friends and American. And they were discussing something and Argentine said, Could we stop talking about that? And boring talking about every American Bob Oh my gosh, this person doesn't like me. Don't I can't believe that. But let's say that. And then later the Argentine you're invited to have smoking pot outside and lose funding in the conversation continued. And the American Girl realized, oh, they were just actually bored and willing to set an interview with their feelings about me. For my value. So yeah, that ties in very much. So what sort of honest, that provides freedom. Space is often great. Like,

Rebecca Beltran: 33:22
I am not sure if something is covering your mic, all of a sudden, the last like, paragraph was a little bit muffled. Or maybe you just backed away or something. I'm not sure. That was it? No. That's about the same

33:36
settings.

Rebecca Beltran: 33:37
It's not a huge change. Maybe it was just an internet thing. So I just didn't want you to talk too much without good. Good audio if possible. Yeah. Because I was going to bring up something interesting there. You would talk a little bit in Argentina. And this is this was a good example, that being polite in Argentina is rude. And being rude is exactly how you know somebody is your friend. Yeah. is sincere.

Sara Thompson 34:07
Yeah. I think Cynthia described once routines came to the house. There was this little kerfuffle where the door man and she said something a little bit provocative, and maybe conflict theory. And Sophia kind of tilted her head and kind of looked was looked up and down thinking wise and then went on and we discussed it later. She's like, Yes, this is the thing that our John Hines do that when they meet you, they throw something at you to see how you respond. And if you're able to roll with it, you're gonna if you don't, you're out. And this kind of immediate play. I would describe it as play. Flirt. Taken perhaps would be another way to describe it, of trying making a try throwing something at somebody to get a sense of how connected and alive they are, and if they're paying attention in the moment, so the suggestion of the the interaction, and I really enjoy that. And you see it all over, I think in the country, in how people drive in, the way that things are run is people don't follow the rules, because they know the rules are mere suggestions. And therefore, because we know nobody's going to follow the rules perfectly, we will pay attention. And I think this was the big shock. In Argentina, it was driven in the taxis there, and the taxis drive down the divider of the lane, and very casual about lanes. very casual, yes, about lanes, there's kind of a constant jockeying for position, it's a little bit more like a horse race than it is what you would think traffic should be nice. And I was worried by thinking how dangerous that people don't follow the rules. But if everybody knows that people don't follow how humans are, we don't follow the rules ever. And we all have different rules. And if we live with this understanding, then we're, we're in the habit of paying attention to what is actually happening, not what we think should. And in fact, that's a much safer way to think driving Seattle, everybody expects people to obey certain rules of the road. And inevitably, they do not. And then people get really upset about it. And when my dad was like that driving time was awkward, because if anybody broke these sacred ground rules, it was god damn son of a bitch, that asshole. Well, maybe they just had a bad day, you know, and are not present. And the tension that arises, the question of people having the same route is a recipe for disappointment.

Rebecca Beltran: 37:25
It is. And that's another interesting thing, I'm glad you brought up the traffic because I noticed that the traffic in the city, and the traffic on the dance floor had something really interesting in common than the traffic in the city, people are just aware, they're not necessarily following the rules, but they're paying attention to everybody else. And in all of the crazy taxi rides I've been in, no one has ever been hurt. And in fact, no one has had to slam on the brakes so hard that we should have been wearing seatbelts, because half the time there aren't seatbelts. So that's a good thing.

37:55
Well, don't use them. Yes, very

Rebecca Beltran: 37:57
few people use them. I thought it was funny that every time there was a seat belt, I would click it. And some of the people in the back were like, What are you doing? Like, Well, come on, I I want to be safe and comfortable if there's anything going wrong? Yes, yes, it was, it was five different levels of self preservation, I place a very high price on being able to walk in and out and being able to dance, and not have any injury that makes that difficult. However, on the dance floor, it was very similar, everybody is just paying attention. And I've been to a couple of fairly crowded dance floors in the US, but it's not ever felt like this, because everybody is paying attention not just to a couple that they're dancing next to and not just to their own little dancing, circular embrace thing, but they're paying attention to the rest of the floor to everybody else to where the edges are to where the tables are. And it creates this, like wider consciousness that's somehow more aware and more connected to the music more connected to each other and more connected to the band more connected to the room. And ah, that is such a delicious feeling.

Sara Thompson 39:10
Yeah, the juiciness that you feel after a good night and I'm no longer in Argentina, the feeling of of being connected to an entire room and that the entire room is moving to the same music is it's like it's like going back to the womb. You know, and where you feel oneness with everything. You know, I think that's the beauty of of transcendental experiences and psychotropics, which are now gaining a lot of traction in a therapeutic capacity. And, you know, a lot of the work that was done pre drug war or pre 60s, in which at which point, they decided that psychotropics were a bad idea for a productive society. Because when people feel connected to nature part of a oneness, there's a lot less stressed, anxiety, fear, and drive to do unnecessary things because you feel connected. And for me, that is the sensation that happens. The classic milonga, that's no longer around was Nino bn. And this was the quintessential expression of that, in that if you were to go in and put sound proof, ear muffs on and watch the floor, you would see the music in the floor, meaning that the whole room was pulsating and dancing in such a way that the music was clear through the whole floor. And in contrast, when I go to mean longest in the states, if I were to do that same thing, I would imagine that it was a silent Milonga and that everybody had their own earphones on and that everybody might be dancing to a different song. And this is very indicative of our culture of individualism. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's all very fascinating. But we can't really change our mammalian nature. And that we are, in fact, tribal creatures, and that we have a very physical, biological need for being connected to another group of mammals, other mammals in a group. And yeah, that's a beautiful point that all the codes in the milonga are just to facilitate that. There was a lot of pushback from people in the states that weren't, didn't know, the language hadn't been to Argentina didn't know the culture. And they interpreted a lot of the codes and the GABA SEO and the rules of the milonga as some sort of machismo or sexist or authoritarian type of activity. And it really has nothing to do with that. And it was interesting to watch people that

42:29
in academics entangle with, we're not

Sara Thompson 42:33
fluent in the language or the culture, try and shove their belief systems into cultural phenomenon like Tango that that had nothing to do with what Tango was, and to watch that push back on something people didn't even understand. And I found that fascinating that not only did they not bother to go and be curious about the culture and the language, but they they were completely resistant to hearing viewpoints that weren't theirs. Yeah, I've

Rebecca Beltran: 43:10
heard that about the cover SEO too, about the macho ism and how it's very men focused. And I completely disagree. And I know you do, too. But I disagree. Because I cover sale people all the time in the United States in Argentina, it looks a little bit different, but it's still catching someone's eye and nudging them to come and dance. It's really not that different at all. And I still choose who I want to dance with.

Sara Thompson 43:39
Yeah, yeah. And how would you describe that sensation of finding a cabin? on that? What do you what was your experience with that?

Rebecca Beltran: 43:52
I guess the sensation is a lot of curiosity, because I'm usually looking around the room paying attention. Seeing who looks like they might be fun to dance with seeing who looks like they might be looking in my direction or heading in my direction. And just kind of assessing the vibe into I think this will be a fun match to I think this will be a fun song. I think this will be a fun Tonda and if it sparks inside me as it Yes. And I will conversate with them and say hey, what do you think? little nudge of my head or something? And and it's not even a big deal. If they say no are the Go away anymore? It's like, Okay, next.

44:33
Yeah, that attachment.

Sara Thompson 44:37
Analysis of the why is the non existent there. And I run into a lot of that conflict. We had a student they're here from California. And this happened last time, as you know, on the trip with some of the people that were there that were quite enraged at their system of communication action around the milongas. And the obligation for people to dance with you wasn't was non existent there.

45:09
And

Sara Thompson 45:11
the difference for me is that in the States, you feel obliged to explain yourself. If you don't want to dance, oh, my feet hurt, Oh, I'm tired, making up excuses worrying about other people's feelings, basically taking responsibility for the feelings of another person, which is a losing battle. And in Argentina, and there's, it dissipates. So you because you can't possibly with the system of the kava sale, you can't possibly pretend to understand what's going on with another person. So you stop worrying about it. And it's such a freedom. And all you're left with then is your own your own emotional responsibility. Like you said, curiosity, like, what am I putting out there energetically, that makes action and action for somebody? There are nights when I go to me longer where I know, I'm just not enough energy. And people don't ask me to dance, there's no connection. And we might as well just either sit and watch, which is super lovely and enjoyable and educational. And listen, which is the other part, you know, of Tango is just listening. And, or go home. Because until you're in the place energetically that is that is attractive. There's really not any point and it's there's nobody to blame but yourself. And I love that because going to me longer and having expectation that people will dance with you, puts them in a position of obligation which is antithetical to

47:03
sensuality.

Rebecca Beltran: 47:05
Yeah, again, this points to some of the other ways that my work on the world and your work in the world overlap, like there's no way in hell, I would ever allow myself to feel obligated to have an appointment with somebody or to do anything in particular, not because I am not interested in that thing, or anything in particular. But just because obligation is not sexy. It's not fun. It doesn't lead to sensuality or eroticism, it is pure responsibility. And for most people, it is just incredibly heavy. And creating any kind of obligation is a bad idea. So I work very hard to set up situations with my work where there's no obligation for anybody. It's just there's a space, you figure out what you're going to do with it together. It's up to both of you. And all of this consent and communication comes about.

Sara Thompson 47:57
Yeah, it's it's incredibly important, isn't it? The freedom is where the energy lifts.

Rebecca Beltran: 48:05
And I like to think of it that way. But the dance too, when I explain the cabas SEO to people and I get the pushback on the power dynamic like No, no, no, you don't want to be obligated to dance with somebody. As a lot of times, the newer dancers are the ones that want that obligation. And they don't realize how challenging it is to dance with somebody that doesn't have their feet under them yet. And so they want to be danced with so that they can learn and that's great, but a lot of great dancers or have a limited patience or a limited willingness to be in that super beginner space. And it is lovely for good dancers to be able to help the other dancers out. It is not lovely, for there to be obligation

Sara Thompson 48:49
for that to happen. I think I think it is nice to help each other out when it's appreciated. But what I've found over the years is that well, I think, I think this is the way I would phrase it. I used to as a dance teacher have a lot of emphasis on learning styles, you know, auditory, visual, right, kinesthetic, blah, blah, blah, and then come to find out they did a study. And it really doesn't matter what people's learning styles are. If people want to learn, they will learn. And that's the number one emphasis emphasise is that you actually have to want to do it. And I think this is super important in in tango and why there's so many people that dance and dance so well is because in order to dance, you have to want it and it's not going to be served to you on a spoon and people aren't going to baby you through it. You have to be hungry and want it and the effect of that is that It, it stimulates strong desire, and people to investigate to really get good. And I think you'll agree the level and quantity of dancing in Argentina is unparalleled to what we see in most places in all places in the States. And if we want that we have to be curious about what brings that. And it's not going to be brought with the obligation. I think I had that epiphany because I was a very good girl. And I danced with every single person that ever asked me to dance for the first 10 years of my tango, every single person I danced with that asked me to dance because I was trained that that was the real nice thing to do and the right thing to do. And after 10 years of that, I looked around, and I've been dancing with some of the same guys for 10 years, and their dancing hadn't changed

50:56
at all for years.

Sara Thompson 50:59
And I thought, What am I doing, like, I work with profession, action, that I love. And I am trying to cultivate something that is really, really cherished by me. That is an artistic expression that is that I have a lot of reverence for. And none of these guys are having to do that. themselves. And so basically, I was rewarding.

51:30
Mediocrity

Sara Thompson 51:32
are the ones that drive the milonga. And you can talk to Argentinian guys, it's like, it's the guys that are you know, that they dress nice, they're clean, they smell good, they show up and they are working on their dancing, and they're going to classes and continued to develop their dancing because of that desire to find more rich, lovely, juicy, exciting connection in the dancing. And we will no matter how much we all are educated ourselves. You know, humans want to have a deep seated drive to procreate, and there's nothing that will change that.

Rebecca Beltran: 52:20
You know what it reminded me of when you were talking about dancing with the same people for 10 years and realizing you were rewarding mediocrity, faking orgasms? Yeah, that is the kind of thing that I remember, years, years years ago, very early in my not just my career, but you know, in my sexual experience, and there was a lot of pressure to be excited and enjoy myself. And when you're young, especially as a woman, you don't necessarily know your body as well. And so I would just enjoy myself. But then when I was getting tired of it, and they didn't seem to be getting it, then it'd be like, Okay, well, let's make sure the speed is over soon. But if they can orgasm, and then, okay, now we're done. But what happened is that it kept encouraging people to continue doing the things that didn't get me a real orgasm. And once I realized that I thought, holy shit, I have just screwed myself not in the good way out of all kinds of pleasure. And what

Sara Thompson 53:19
am I thinking? Yeah, I haven't done that in years. Yeah, our selves and others, right other women. Because eventually, people go on to other partners. And if they aren't getting sincere feedback, the ruse is perpetuated.

Rebecca Beltran: 53:40
And the other thing about that, that's super heartbreaking for me is if we, in that situation, they never really get to feel what it's like to have a fully satisfied woman. And that is incredible. And in my experience, professionally, and otherwise, it's not uncommon to have a real orgasm for a woman that much anymore. But it is really uncommon to have a woman that is constantly Sure enough of herself to allow her to have that. And that

54:15
is cool. Yeah, it is about that. And, and Tango is very much this same feeling. Everybody's wanting that sense of, of feeling totally enacted and like time goes away, and you're totally in the sensation of the body. And I think the frustration that I run into is that people in the states are more interested in thinking they're good than feeling what's actually happening. I had in classes. I had a student say to me once, it's just hard to hear that We're not good. But how can you ever improve? If you are willing to hear that, you'll never actually be good. If you aren't willing to hear that you aren't good at something. And it's an an interesting cultural phenomenon. And going back to Argentina, you know, I think an Argentine would respond with, it's normal not to be good at something you've just started. And this is normal. Of course, it's the most normal thing. You don't know. You just started, how could you not be good? How could you be good. Um, and that kind of comfort with our human process is allows for people to go into all kinds of like, we're talking about hobbies. Everybody has an art form. Everybody plays a music musical instrument, or paints? Or does theater arts, or dances, salsa, or has these passion projects that they do? And they're very willing to do them because it's normal to suck at things. And that's the way you learn. And I don't find the same comfort with that here in the States, that it's normal not to be good at something for years.

Rebecca Beltran: 56:15
Yeah, that is definitely a hard edge for a lot of us to push. And that's neat that we were talking about what I essentially described as flirting. You know that? Yes, you're doing something really fun. And also, no, that's not quite it.

56:30
Yeah. And that, yes, yes. Yes, actually, I think one of my friends was describing. And one of them is

56:39
the gift and the takeaway, and how we need both. I mean, just giving, giving, giving, just, just sitting there naked in front of an audience is is still life painting, right? And it's just, it's not that interesting. It's a hippie, it's a nudist colony. It's not that sexy. And that, in fact, the takeaway is just as important as the gift and it's what keeps us interested, right?

57:08
Yeah. Yeah,

Sara Thompson 57:10
I agree. That kind of what you're feeling into, like, yes, we have to. There's gotta be some yeses in there. And that's what makes the nose more interesting and challenging. And useful. Yeah. Very easy.

Rebecca Beltran: 57:26
The noes are only useful. The yeses are only as useful as the noes are clear.

57:33
And inversely, right. Yeah. The noes are only palatable if there's some yeses in there also. Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Beltran: 57:43
Speaking of there was one interesting conversation we had the first time in Argentina about the distinction between the word bitch in the US and in Argentina.

57:56
Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Thompson 57:57
I think that's a really important one is that men love bitches. I think there's quite a few dating books about that. Have a lot of material on that. And the game that ensues? Well, Julio Julio Varma said, I said it best. Because as, as we are now, there's a lot of quantification about Tango. Tango is this Tango is that and holy Owens said to me, says come on Tango is a game between a man and a woman or the masculine and feminine, the yin and the yang. Be two men also do women but there has to be a game or it's flat. We have a lot of us, you know, I do all the different dances. I do west coast, swing and ballroom and everything. And I often say to people that if you want a desexualized dance, you should take a west coast swing because there's a high level of connection, incredible improvisation. But no, you can do it without any sexuality, or sensuality, for that matter. It's just more like child's play, right? It's very playful can be other things as well, but it's not requisite of that. And I think that's the thing that why people react to Tango so much is because it is inherently sensual. And through sensuality. Often we access sexuality. Not always sensuality can just be sensuality. But you're going to have to have some sort of play. It's not. It's not benign. It's it's not it's, it's a there's arrows in it. And that's life isn't Arabs.

Rebecca Beltran: 59:48
I think so.

59:50
I don't think you have like without arrows.

Rebecca Beltran: 59:53
I'm pretty sure that's true. Yeah.

Sara Thompson 59:56
So I think that's the piece. That tie back into the bitch and the play and the yes and the No. And I think it's interesting, I don't really have the answers to this because in Argentina, as you notice, there's a very strong movement of feminism equal rights, gay marriage was legal there before it was in the States, we went to the museum that has a huge trans display, talking about the trans population, there is, I would say, much more relaxation, around sexuality than what we're experiencing now in the states with the battle against trans health care for the for trans children. You know, banning trans storytime for kids. I have friends in the gay community that are in theater and are labeled as groomers. Because they're empowering kids of different sexual orientations to find healthy artistic outlets. And there is such a really

1:01:04
vicious and cruel pushback

Sara Thompson 1:01:09
on sexuality in the States right now. And on the other hand, in Argentina, there's a lot of movement towards feminism and empowerment women, a lot of women dancing with other women, men dancing with other men. And so I think some of the cliches around men and women are falling away. But I don't find the same tension around it that I find here against the sexual roles in tango, as well as in the culture. But it'll be interesting to see where it goes because it is changing. I know one of our favorite dancers that we'd see at them a longest was that person a guy from San Francisco that was always dancing in heels. Want him to always does that really, he's like, for me, it works great. To dance meals to me always that it's toenails done and air and fellas and

Rebecca Beltran: 1:02:07
his suits were so sexy. Oh, gorgeous.

Sara Thompson 1:02:11
fun and interesting to see. And yeah, I love I love that, that people are they're challenging and nobody bats an eyelash and living longer. Because everybody because nobody's worried about other people. They're much more I would say in a milonga is aware of their own emotional needs, and less worried about controlling other people.

Rebecca Beltran: 1:02:34
Which is good because controlling other people never works.

1:02:36
It never works.

Rebecca Beltran: 1:02:38
So might as well give that up. I had a question for you, I wanted to just have you described before we wrap up, I wanted to have you describe any type of pleasure that you allow yourself to indulge in as much as you're willing to share with us you don't have to?

Sara Thompson 1:02:56
Absolutely, I'm the one to stay with Tango. Um, what I tell the girls that I work with is that, you know, as you improve and become more and more of a skilled dancer and follower woman in the dance, part of the woman we would say in Argentina or follow or we say in the States, all I focus on in my dancing is the pleasure of my movement. And the more that I can enjoy the quality of movement that I'm happening in my body that that selfishness is an incredible gift to the leader because the more the woman is staying present with the feeling of her movement, the more the man can give to the woman in the dancing. If the woman is controlling the movement or thinking or doubting or worrying. It means that there is a block for the dancing to happen. So in a way, I think to use your analogy about thinking an orgasm. Tango is the same way in that if you're thinking oh, I have to do this step right or do that step right or do this technique right? Instead of feeling the movement as it's happening, feeling that the erotic energy of pleasure in your body as you're dancing, then it doesn't work. And I think that's, that's, for me, the greatest pleasure in my life is that pleasure of what's what keeps me keeps me going. The pleasure of the moment in dancing where everything else lives fails, falls away. The other pleasure talking about not being good at things that I'm just taking up jump roping, this is my my commitment to suck at something new every year. This year, it's jump roping. So I'm I have found so much pleasure in not knowing in making mistakes in laughing at myself, and watching the process of learning something new. And all that discomfort can actually be an incredible pleasure. Gosh, I probably don't know where to stop when it comes to pleasure. But um, those are the two is the two prominent things that

1:05:31
are alive for me. Right? Right. And,

Rebecca Beltran: 1:05:33
you know, I wouldn't make you stop if you could keep going, except that my battery's about to die. So we are gonna get cut off anytime soon. Thank you so much, Sarah, for being on the show. This was such a blast to talk and to recap, some Tango tours with you and some of the cultural distinctions and orgasms and openness and intimacy and all those things.

Sara Thompson 1:05:54
Yeah, I love talking with you, Rebecca. I love the work that you do. And I always look forward to to connecting to you and finding out what's new and alive in your world. Because you're you're always on to something delicious.

Rebecca Beltran: 1:06:13
Yeah, I can't help but it's just my passion. Look for pleasure. Find pleasure. Spread pleasure. All right, you have a wonderful rest of your day over there in California. Say hi to Luca for me.

Sara Thompson 1:06:30
Talk about pleasure. Dogs got it. Been in a pool today after hot run. Ah, that sounds wonderful. Fantastic. We still

Rebecca Beltran: 1:06:41
think singer knows that you want to be a thoughtful, playful, engaged artistic person, loving your world, and learning new ways to express yourself and to thrive. Missy, the problem is that the tango lifestyle doesn't really fit very well into American ideals. Maybe your corporate work schedule doesn't fit your artistic souls ideal day. This leaves you feeling annoyed, disconnected and aching to be free. The boring old story that dance is a hobby to be done weekly, just doesn't fit for you anymore. Sarah believes that it's absolutely possible to create value in a world and that that can be done in whatever shape you want your life to be. If you're open to new things and pursue pleasure with an open heart, you will find your people. We know what it's like to try and digest all of the tango advice and the real world needs in pursuit of your authentic expression. And Sarah knows who you need to meet to learn and expand and your dance at whatever speed you can handle. And to do so while balancing a full life in another hemisphere of the globe. She's been living in dancing in Argentina on and off for 20 plus years. She's fluent in Argentinian Spanish, and in the ways of the world and one of that is South American time. Take some time to get used to. Here's how Sarah does it. Register for an upcoming winter satis Tango tour. The link is in the episode details. Join her and quite possibly me in the heart of the tango world for learning, collaboration and study and the beautiful private home complete with an in house chef, indoor pool and spa area and daily private group tangled lessons with an expert who will take our dance deeper and deeper together. So you can stop wasting time and money getting an awkward cultural experience replete with tourist traps, language problems, exchange rate rip offs and poor Tango education and find your deeply intimate expression by connecting with the people and the places that are Tangled Roots. Hey, their pleasure seeker. Well, that's it for today's conversation here at pleasure central radio. We love using Conscious Communication, science geekery and copious amounts of true pleasure to improve our partnerships, our money and our love lives. And we hope you do too. If you loved what you heard here, we'd love a review. You can do this easily on podcast players like Spotify and Apple podcasts. It only takes a couple of seconds. And it's an easy way to help more people discover the show without you having to actually bring it up with it. To hear other episodes of the podcast and get notified immediately when a new episode is released. Follow me on your favorite podcast player. Find out more and get in touch at pleasure Central radio.com